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  backbencher

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Posted: December 12 2017 at 1:43pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

http://weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20323

I think the principal issue was the gas port was too far forward.  For effective gas retardation, both H&K and now Walther have put the gas port relatively close to the chamber, which allows the gas to prevent the slide/bolt from moving as soon as the bullet clears the port.  When the port is close to the muzzle, as in the VG-1 & Tanner's design, the bolt has already started extraction while at peak pressure, which is not the time you want extraction to begin.

The Steyr/Rogak design, using a mid port, were still using pistol ammo and a short bbl, which mitigated the VG-1/Tanner designs' issues.
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  Zuzzy

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Posted: December 12 2017 at 2:24pm | IP Logged Quote Zuzzy

Firearm research community have made a conclusion that in VG it served only as a buffer/cushion.

But I would like to see hi speed footage with ports blocked.

As for Rogak, lookup Ians video on it, and compare it to Steyr video, and see for yourself where did american clone failed., it was not just poor workmanship but in the gas delay also.
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  Lutyman70

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Posted: December 13 2017 at 9:32am | IP Logged Quote Lutyman70

Interesting. I would reckon that putting the gas port closer to the chamber would be ideal. And I guess a relatively strong bolt spring would go a long way as well I reckon.
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  backbencher

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Posted: December 13 2017 at 11:46am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Recoil springs don't seem to do much except w/ rimfire cartridges or the mouse gun centerfires.

Alexander Arms' .17" HMR upper requires certain hammer springs to operate properly, and the Beretta/Taurus tip up bbl models use a relatively light slide and a monster of a recoil spring in the slide.

The recoil spring has 2 purposes - slow the slide/bolt enough to keep it from beating the weapon to death if/when it impacts the rear of the receiver @ end of travel, and to return the slide/bolt to battery.  In almost all (exceptions noted above) straight blowback actions, the mass of the slide/bolt alone is what is used to delay the opening of the breech until pressure has dropped enough to allow normal extraction.
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  Lutyman70

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Posted: December 15 2017 at 7:52am | IP Logged Quote Lutyman70

Well then shouldn't ideally a recoil spring add extra force to the mass of the bolt? I.e. a 3 lbf recoil spring on a 1.4 lb bolt would specifically require a ~4 lb force to act upon said bolt & spring.
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  backbencher

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Posted: December 15 2017 at 8:08am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Only part of the recoil spring will add mass to the recoiling parts, unless the spring is only coupled to the bolt, and has free travel before it impacts the rear.

The only guns that I'm familiar w/ in which the springs aid significantly in retarding the movement of the bolt are the ones I mentioned previously.
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: December 15 2017 at 10:10pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

Accelerating 1.4 lb of mass at a high velocity requires a great deal of force. Pushing a spring imposing 3 lb of force requires only 3 lb of force.
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  ds1948

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Posted: December 16 2017 at 7:45am | IP Logged Quote ds1948

Its half the mass of the spring not the lb/in. For example a car spring weighs 25 pounds but it takes 500 lb/in to compress. The spring would only contribute 12.5 pounds roughly
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  Zuzzy

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Posted: December 17 2017 at 2:19am | IP Logged Quote Zuzzy

Problem with spring is that in the bolt forward position, it is in its weakest state, not fully compressed.

Now, if you would reverse it somehow, that spring acts on bolt with force similar to the force it is pushing the bolt on the end of the travel, I suppose there will be results in slowing the bolt travel.

But that would also put abnormal wear and strain on the spring.

We're all waiting for hi speed cameras price drop, I suppose it will happen in 5 or so years, with it many of the blowback tests could be researched visually.
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  backbencher

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Posted: December 17 2017 at 9:42am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Nothing in blowback theory says the springs have to be compression springs.  Springs can just as easily sit in front of the action, be stretched on firing, and pull the bolt back into battery.
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  Lutyman70

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Posted: December 18 2017 at 10:28am | IP Logged Quote Lutyman70

So basically any spring type goes then? Interesting.
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  Paraquat

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Posted: December 18 2017 at 10:38am | IP Logged Quote Paraquat


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  backbencher

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Posted: December 18 2017 at 10:58am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Sadly, quarterbore seemingly is no more.
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