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80% handguns
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  justin22885

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Posted: June 26 2017 at 6:43pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

well, i knew the P320 was going to be offered as an 80% option and a company is already making the, but i was also looking at glock options as well with the polymer 80 and the next gen frames theyre working on are much better designed, but they use two metal peices in the front and rear for rails.. but it also had me thinking of the iron glock project and how that sheet metal frame was put into an airsoft glock frame and the iron glock was more or less like a P320 frame insert (but for glock) with a magwell welded to it

this had me thinking of something even more akin to the P320 insert could be made for a glock and be pinned, or epoxy bedded into a plastic frame?.. you wouldnt need the magazine well portion of it which would greatly make it easier.. maybe you could cut down a G17 frame and barrel to G19 dimensions with a G19 slide and you can swap out frames and slide assemblies to go between the two sizes, much like a P320

also, this had me looking at the 1911 options as well, an STI 2011 style frame can be had as an 80% but also the ares rudius single stack option.. this has me wondering if someone could remove the dust cover portion and bed the insert into another frame for a hammer fired 1911 compatible option, does anyone make a 1911 compatible frame with a better grip, no grip safety?
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  backbencher

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Posted: June 26 2017 at 8:45pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

You can pin the grip safety on any 1911.  I'd be interested in a small frame 1911 using Glock magazines, myself.

I'm still wondering if Glock mags can fit in the 320 frame if the LRBHO arms are put on the outside of the frame.  You'll still have to 3-D print a grip/mag well - or carve one.
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  justin22885

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Posted: June 26 2017 at 9:01pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

i know about all of that, i really wish i could get a more modernized grip segment for the STI 2011, something like the detonics MTX grip if you are familiar with those

youre wondering if glock mags can fit the P320 frame as in the plastic grip part, or through the stamped insert?, the polymer 80 rail inserts and locking block pieces are removable in their glock frames, so you could use one of those for a frame

what really disappointed me about the P320 is that neither the grips nor the metal insert is compatible between the 9/40 frames and the 45acp versions, so all that modularity i heard about with being able to change calibers is really the ability to do what you can do on every other 9mm/40 pistol out there

the 1911 is one of the few that can run all of its calibers on the same frame, go from a 45acp to a 10mm to a 9mm if you choose to, so with the P320 not really being able to do anything a glock doesnt already do, id rather go with the lower bore axis and bigger aftermarket and make the glock from 80%
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Posted: June 26 2017 at 11:55pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

The P250, now all but discontinued, ran from .22" LR to .45" ACP.

On the P320 frame, the 9x19mm slide will run off a .45" ACP frame, but you lose the disassembly safety.  The grips are different b/c the magazine for the .45" ACP is larger, I believe.

I'm a Glock mag fanboy, but w/ the adoption of the 320 by the military, I expect to see a large aftermarket emerge for the 320, and the 320 certainly has the better base magazine.
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Posted: June 27 2017 at 12:07am | IP Logged Quote justin22885

they could have just went with a decent middle ground frame size, like the EAA witness uses for example, you can still get about 12 rounds of 45acp but can also easily fit 10mm, 40, and 9 in it too.. or simply go with a 45acp size grip and make 9mm mags to fit that simply by simpling the sides of the mag to keep 9mm in line

so since it doesnt do anything any other 9mm could do, what youre left with is a striker fired pistol that frankly sig was too lazy to design from scratch, used their same P226 style high bore axis slides on a light plastic frame and modified a hammer fired P250 to work, like they didnt even care enough to design something for the purpose of being striker fired

even though it will get a lot of aftermarket attention being some new military pistol, its never going to catch up to glock or the 1911 so why not just make a 320 style insert (similar to the iron glock) for glocks and get what you have with the P320 but using glock parts?
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Posted: June 27 2017 at 1:53am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

It might eventually catch up to Glock in terms of magazine use.  Right now, the pistol magazine w/ the next most aftermarket usage in other firearms is the Beretta 92.  Glock is far & away in 1st place w/ the mags.

It might be possible to do a 320 like receiver for the Glock, but I hesitate.  Boris, of Iron Glock & Fruity Ghost fame, set out to build a Steyr/SIG type chassis receiver for the Glock - and ended up w/ a complete steel frame.  Boris arguably knows more about building Glocks from scratch than any other single individual, and he even produced build kits and plans.  He started off trying to make a simple receiver, and look where he ended up.

I'm not saying it can't be done - but not as easy as taking a SIG 320 receiver and reproducing it - and you'll have to 3-D print your own grips.

Have you looked @ the Steyr?  We could've 80% that years ago - and the serial number isn't even on the frame - it's on the grip.
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  justin22885

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Posted: June 27 2017 at 2:05am | IP Logged Quote justin22885

well, the new polymer 80s coming out have steel rails front and rear with two removable inserts that fit a plastic frame

im looking at a 3D model of the insert piece for the steyr M9A1, and its more than just a bent or stamped part, there seems to be a decent amount of machining work done on this little part

it would be nice when 3D printing finally gets to a point where the frames it creates are as strong and rugged as their injection moulded counterparts, then you could 3D scan your grip, make changes for comfort, then print a new one
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Posted: July 07 2017 at 1:14pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

if someone made a frame component similar to the iron glock or a P320 type of cage with a welded on sheet metal sleeve lining the magazine well, would it alleviate enough stresses to make a 3D printed grip component viable and able to last a reasonable service life?
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  backbencher

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Posted: July 07 2017 at 1:26pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Well, K1rodeoboater on ARFCOM is trying to make a homemade 320 receiver right now, then fit a stock SIG grip to it - http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_49/478922_80--FCG-in-the-work s.html

yaybacon was saying this morning that his printed 3-D stuff only lasts a week in direct sunlight.  http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26642

Maybe 3-D print a mold, and cast a fiber-reinforced epoxy grip?
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Posted: July 07 2017 at 2:10pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

theres a company actually making 80% sig receivers, only need to have the rails trimmed in length and a few holes drilled but if im going with some stupid high bore axis id rather just have something hammer fired and for that a 1911 slide would offer a hell of a lot more flexibility as you can go from 9mm to 10mm to 45acp all on the same frame, 320 cant do that
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  backbencher

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Posted: July 07 2017 at 2:27pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

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Posted: August 26 2017 at 1:25pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

i spoke with the people at polymer 80 and theyre updating their full size frame with all the features of their small size.. the texture-less grip, straight backstrap, no finger grooves, no thumb rest.. this means this pistol is going to have better ergos without the finger grooves and hump as found on the G17, but without the thumb rest and no texturing either its a blank canvas for custom stippling or skateboard tape... i may just get one when they come out since im wanting to "ghost gun" my replacement to my CZ75
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Posted: July 22 2018 at 9:57pm | IP Logged Quote Uzitiger

I tried to use the PF940 to make a G19X clone. I filled in the thumb depressions and filed off the thumb rests, I added a hooked trigger using plastic repair epoxy and got rid of the flared magwell Darth Vader  Nazi helmet from the bottom of the grip.
I didn't know much about Glocks an when I trimmed the steel rail to allow the G19 slide to function but I decided it may not be safe and got a P80 frame and built a 9mm pistol. I didn't know that the barrels differ on the G17 and G19 not only in length but the lug spacing differs.
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Posted: July 23 2018 at 1:00pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

I'm waiting for my SUB-2000 to come back, then I plan to order a Polymer 80 26 size frame for my new CCH.  It might have to wait on a small Form 1 9mm suppressor - already have the stamp.
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Posted: July 24 2018 at 1:31pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

im not sure i am ever going to warm up to plastic guns though.. its nothing to do with the structural properties of the material.. which would be stupid given a polymer gun, at least any decent one, is basically a steel frame where it counts with a polymer grip moulded over top.. i just dont like the feel, or the inability to change any features of the grip where it counts...

not being able to change the texture of a grip without having to send it away to have somebody permanently modify your frame by melting a new texture into it, where i could simply take a screwdriver to my CZ and put on some G10s of any texture i like, is a major shortcoming... also, most polymer railed guns have solid polymer rails that tend to be rather flimsy and flexible as well.. cool that M&P corrected that with the 2.0, but for the most part.. meh
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Posted: July 24 2018 at 2:27pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

What are the replacement grips for the SIG 250/320, like $50?  You can stipple any polymer frame yourself w/ a soldering iron, or a paper clip and a cigarette lighter.

All guns flex when fired - a recent Forgotten Weapons video showed an FN FAL bbl flexing like spaghetti.  The question is always, regardless of material, does the system return to zero?
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Posted: July 25 2018 at 11:50am | IP Logged Quote justin22885

the P320 has a long ways to go before i'd trust it, many of the issues sig has been having with it, in all likeliness, were present with the P250 which sank largely due to issues it was having, all sig did was take a P250, change one or two internal parts to make it work with a striker and tried marketing it as new and improved.. then of course you get the drop free issues, sig claims they solved the problem but people are still having issues.. they need to get their sh*t together, honestly

the other downside to building a sig really is that the only parts youre going to have available to you, are sig parts, whereas a custom glock or 1911 build you can source slides, barrels, fire control group parts, etc from a half dozen or more different places giving you way more options to personalize what you are building.. will the P320 ever reach the level of aftermarket, third party support, or trust of a glock? probably not
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Posted: July 30 2018 at 1:20pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

not really on topic, but a random thought about handguns..

the weight of a slide, the entire reciprocating mass on a G19, 1911, and P226 slide are all over 12 ounces.. around 12.5-13oz

the the required bolt mass according to engineers that makes for a safe blowback 9mm is 500 grams, or about 1.1lbs, and the slide mass on a hi point C9 is 1.05 (16.8oz) (shorter barrel shouldnt need as much).. and an astra 600 i read, though havent confirmed, has a slide mass of 400 grams or about 14.1oz

being just a few measly ounces off from what is considered a safe slide mass for a straight blowback 9mm, i wonder why you dont see that many blowback 9s being manufactured.. it could be done so much more inexpensively, and the end result would be even more reliable.. and another 4oz on top of a G19 is still only a pistol weighing 26oz.. using the astra weights.. thats a 23-23.5oz pistol with no tilting barrel or locking mechanism at all

anyway, just a random thought
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Posted: July 30 2018 at 10:15pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

I'm looking forward to electronic timed unlocking - very light slides, easy to rack, easy to load magazines.

Slide is locked until pressures drop safely, then unlocks, travels to rear; and is held there long enough for the next round to pop up fully into the feed lips.
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Posted: August 03 2018 at 1:18pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

why use an electrical circuit to time unlocking?.. why not use a couple electrodes embedded into a couple holes drilled at the end of the barrel that when a copper or steel jacketed bullet crosses them it'll complete a circuit, fire a solenoid, and unlock the action with enough remaining gas and time to blow it back?.. electric delayed blowback

do you really want a gun that relies on batteries though?.. not that its that big of an issue for me, i do a lot more with 9x18 than i do with 9mm anymore and to be completely and totally honest, if someone made a 9x18 pistol with a rail on it i probably wouldnt even see a need to use my CZ-75 for home defense anymore either.. so im comfortable using the calibers already available in smaller blowback pistols
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