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12ga.10ga.8ga,4ga FH; 700HE, Big Bores--
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  hubel585

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Posted: August 31 2014 at 6:48pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Yes that is us, we keep getting the word out. Ed
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  hubel585

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Posted: September 09 2014 at 11:32pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

@

I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an

extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga

one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger

than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one

on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

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  hubel585

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Posted: October 25 2014 at 9:34pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is picture of 585HE 100 cases loaded, CEB solid nose bullets

and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat

or wide hollowpoint. .

Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,

and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve

sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and

315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.

I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases.

@

Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro

Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually

set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga

size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid

shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses

off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,

to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went

eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short

cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the

577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,

then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"

and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet

of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet

diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns

and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed

and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider

was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all

over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a

24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and

reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And

stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing

the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding

reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.

The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are

about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.

We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,

with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,

break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug

goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.

Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed

to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles

energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel

gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the

actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.

So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.

.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga

and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

@

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  backbencher

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Posted: October 27 2014 at 1:53am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Well done!
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  hubel585

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Posted: October 27 2014 at 5:59am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Thankyou-all this  info is work by many guys

over the years. Hope to have many more years of fun.Ed

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  hubel585

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Posted: December 19 2014 at 8:07pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super

sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple

middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,

which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the

sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a

special made hollowed out long roll crimper.

Getting some more interest in our 585HE.

An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm

PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5

cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases

being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes

like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr

spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using

3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.

Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place

where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where

steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.

I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the

actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .

Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by

cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on

inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like

Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice

like me can do.....

A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr

ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr

to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..

The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,

for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,

and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

@

@

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  hubel585

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Posted: February 14 2015 at 1:24pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH

here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light

bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil

but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about

mach 4 with a top load..

Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.

It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow

sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a

bunch of them and so does McGowen.

@

Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.

It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a

hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as

hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would

work in our 12ga sabot..

But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they

can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture

of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.

Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.

Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a

way to keep them together group wise.Ed

@

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  weaponeer

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Posted: February 22 2015 at 7:34pm | IP Logged Quote weaponeer

hubel585 wrote:

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super

sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple

middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,

which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the

sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a

special made hollowed out long roll crimper.

Getting some more interest in our 585HE.

An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm

PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5

cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases

being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes

like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr

spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using

3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.

Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place

where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where

steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.

I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the

actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .

Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by

cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on

inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like

Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice

like me can do.....

A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr

ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr

to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..

The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,

for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,

and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

@

@



Very Interesting

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  hubel585

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Posted: April 22 2015 at 9:39am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,



Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.

.

There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos


Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.





Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.



And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire
forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED
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  hubel585

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Posted: June 25 2015 at 10:33am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.

But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..

For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed


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Posted: September 25 2015 at 4:05am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions.
Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.



Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.



And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we use couple of the rifle powders, slower than shotgun powders, .
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and slower RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, in all temps, that has a speed between the IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different mfg process to put the deterrents in the powder kernel to
control speeds, which allows much easier ignition, because the deterrent is
not all on the outside of the kernel.   RE17 ignites easier compared to 98%
majority of rifle powders with all the deterrent on the outside.

But there are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those folks in UK and Europe, They are called-   RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, about same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..

Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
Be nice to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or the V V TR140 shipped, if ever
possible, into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work.
But the guys in UK/EU now can load some real hairy, slow powder, slug loads,
we experimented with, even though not having IMR 4759....Ed

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Posted: October 17 2015 at 6:14pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is picture of 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.



Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.



We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers.

And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand,
we have barrels, cases, and reloading dies..Ed


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  hubel585

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Posted: November 09 2015 at 6:07pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,

Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around



Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny type.





The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed


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Posted: December 10 2015 at 6:57am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed




About our 2.17" 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.
It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.
With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet.
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.
Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..

In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are s**y.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.




Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...Ed


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Posted: December 26 2015 at 12:26am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is a picture from the back, of a big Lawton action that
our 585HE fits in nice. Scope rail on there is tapered
for long range shooting.



Here is what our wildcatter buddy is making from our
585HE brass to see how they look and experiment with.
He is getting reamers, dies, and gun setup first for the 375.






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  hubel585

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Posted: January 24 2016 at 5:47pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever.

Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.



Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the MPI stock..



Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF




On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.

So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads,
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed




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  backbencher

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Posted: January 25 2016 at 4:27am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Always good to hear from you. How much do you pay your chiropractor each month? Or do you play in a local band w/ just your shoulder blades clapping?   
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  hubel585

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Posted: January 25 2016 at 11:51am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

We use weighted guns, thick pads,

and now let younger bunch do real hairy ones, Ed
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  hubel585

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Posted: February 12 2016 at 9:22pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun cases, holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
These with light brass slugs supposed to do over 2000 fps.




Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN.
Known as Rocky Mtn Rifle. Video is on Youtube of testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzQjRGfT1A

Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for a guy,
the second one they built. First one killed the buff pictured earlier .
AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE.
Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for 585HE..



Picture of Rossi singleshot with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, for testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got lots of cases. Ed


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  backbencher

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Posted: February 13 2016 at 1:23pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Tar Hunt used to make rifled 20 & 12 ga bolt actions, rather accurate ones, no?
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