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12ga.10ga.8ga,4ga FH; 700HE, Big Bores--
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  Mech warrior

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Posted: May 07 2013 at 12:35am | IP Logged Quote Mech warrior

God i love this thread! Keep up the awesome work!

One day i am gonna get me one of these bad boys!   
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  hubel585

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Posted: May 26 2013 at 1:29pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.

First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot

bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting

barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.

And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if

base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real

tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.

On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand

which tapers a bit. Easy to see.

Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball

flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different

styles of Minies.

Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize

12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use

for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about

where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.

They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

@

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  hubel585

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Posted: June 22 2013 at 3:12pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..

20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support to the

bottom of the slug.If in part of the loads the support gets cocked, then

the slug won't be straight on and can account for open groups.

Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,

but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our

sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing

145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like

having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super size.

Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the

puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.

Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,

to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.

TheFiringLine, third. AccReloading fourth...Ed

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  hubel585

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Posted: July 05 2013 at 9:45pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.

Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.

A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US

and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet

of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585

with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.

Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy

of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.

Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list

and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier

1500------5

1600------5.7

1700------6.42

1800------7.2

1900------8

2000------9

2100------9.8

2200------10.75

2300------11.75

2400------12.8

2500------13.9

2600------15

2700------16.2

2800------17.4

2900------18.7

3000------20

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  hubel585

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Posted: July 18 2013 at 1:54pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that

you can get molds for from Lyman,

Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,

the best size for the 12ga sabots.

@

A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,

650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure

Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left

straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all

the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

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  hubel585

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Posted: August 21 2013 at 2:39pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in

the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel

and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.

It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.

Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and

the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.

Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using

IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him

go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of

EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,

and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in

sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using

Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if

problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and

wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of

sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface

of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The

4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed

with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of

way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into

the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the

good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems

across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just

the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for

wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun

building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon

a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

@

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  hubel585

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Posted: September 15 2013 at 1:47pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with

black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is

an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks

impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt

he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like

the faster powder did for him.

..

Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over

the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.

The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp

180 degree crimp down on top of it.

We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but

they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case

1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.

Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.

The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs

We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,

single shots and checking couple lever actions.

Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

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Posted: October 16 2013 at 12:24am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots

.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of

brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner

Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies

and sometimes you have to use different wads..

In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with

12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between

seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down

evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,

You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case

I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps

I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.

The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it

in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into

couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,

straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big

run of cases made in a factory.

@

Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi

in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.

Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.

The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length

with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as

they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

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  JSReer

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Posted: October 17 2013 at 7:49am | IP Logged Quote JSReer

Fascinating thread!

Have you ever considered some more radical variations beyond simple cylindrical slugs?
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  hubel585

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Posted: October 17 2013 at 10:40am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

I shot couple with fat dart someone found

Making them too expensive for volume shooting.

 

We have our 12ga sabot you can put a long

58cal pointed bullet in.Ed

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Posted: December 08 2013 at 8:29pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our

sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared

to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun

powder but made it much smaller using much more

of the slower 4759.

There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and

other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans

on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get

them or don't cast their own.......

Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com

If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch

our 585 cases imported for guys to get there also.

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long

barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to the

loads we setup.They go faster in long barrel than in short kiln guns.

Our favorite is 900gr in the 8ga wadcup at 2300, in plastic case.

Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,

60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet.

Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.

Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel

barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet I tapered a little and fit it

inside the hollowbase of the bullet.That's how to get 4 pellets in....Ed

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  hubel585

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Posted: January 01 2014 at 9:59pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.

Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our

12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use

577 NE bullets also.

For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5"

Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use

577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper

than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style

forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.

Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,

and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.

You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more

will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14

that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,

1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly

Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice

walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.

It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine.

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  hubel585

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 12:20am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a

Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.

Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,

so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass

cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE

3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to

540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet

mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that

would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and

turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.

And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep

saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and

slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other

caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and

cheaper if you cast your own.

@

Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.

Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.

Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...

In back some of the cases and die sets.

Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil

reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with

the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,

1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper

to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more Enfields

and other actions through the winter. Ed

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  hubel585

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Posted: February 22 2014 at 1:07pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases

but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than

plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.

And cases expand a lot with heavier loaded slug

loads, are harder to resize, wear out quicker.

But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits

those cases and still chambers in regular 12ga.

chamber, it isnt a sloppy fit.

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length

backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use

the Magtech brass and .850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.

Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case

and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.And you do not

fire them through 12ga regular size barrel.

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length

backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads

under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.

The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,

and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum

pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short

case can hold.

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.

These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than

others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns

to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual

12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to

minimum specs so cases don't over expand.

In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,

and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED

@

@

@

Here is the ytube URL again for our guy

shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a

pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc

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  hubel585

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Posted: March 13 2014 at 1:49am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop

the skirts from deforming, I found that dense dow foam works

good, I was using glue gun but dow foam is easier, Just cut

plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make a tight

fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....

Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug.

How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on

top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga

and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI

24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great

in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and

wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.

The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with

the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,

drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.

And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single

shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,

even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .

Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"

model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it

feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we

made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for

slightly longer stroke.Ed

@

@

@

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  backbencher

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Posted: March 13 2014 at 12:53pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Wow.
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  hubel585

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Posted: April 23 2014 at 11:27pm | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.

Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded

to match 577NE power.

Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels

as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys

have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.

Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.

It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.

Built by his smith who has a reamer.

Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three

reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,

Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

@

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Posted: April 24 2014 at 12:24am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Beautiful.  Just beautiful.  Somewhere there is a shoulder surgery specialist crying, thinking of the boat he is going to have built.  
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  hubel585

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Posted: August 16 2014 at 12:43am | IP Logged Quote hubel585

Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE

and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture

of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same

bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break

actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.

Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds

458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that

was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit

in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,

fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give

good resistance for good ignition.

Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol

bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585

will go about mach 4.

Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber

coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being

too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and

we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

@

@

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  backbencher

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Posted: August 16 2014 at 2:12pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

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